windows-1252 ltr Dispossessed: Jesus and Judgement
Kevin J. Bowman - a pilgrim trying to be the hands and feet of Jesus
Labels: Jesus, Jubilee, Judgement, Kingdom of God
- 1:02 PM
The thing I wrestle with is this: if that is the message Jesus was communicating, then why don't we see that portrayed in the Apostles once they receive the Holy Spirit? Paul, Peter, Philip, Stephen and all preach the human condition of sin and the need for humility before God. Look at their sermons where the Spirit convicted the world of its sin so they would turn to God. How can one know the love of God if they are never made aware of or convicted of their sin? I look at those Jesus judged and those he did not: he judged those who were unaware of their shortcomings and gave mercy to those who already felt judgment. He brought them ALL BALANCE. Those with no judgment and all mercy he brought judgment and those with all judgment and no mercy he brought mercy. The marginalized did not need to feel judged, they already felt that and needed someone to show them the mercy of God so they could be whole. The Pharisees needed that judgment so they could see their failings in relation to that perfect Father who loves us.
The message and actions of the Apostles in Acts look radically different from the understanding of Jesus' teaching you purport.
And where do phrases like "they who overcame the world" and "do not let anyone disqualify you for the prize" fit in with this understanding you are sharing?
Kevin J. Bowman - 4:24 PM
Nate,
I don't disagree with what you are saying. First off, I think this is the message we see the Apostles portray. To say that "Jesus is Lord" means that no other power is Lord.
I do not think it could be better stated than you did the, "I look at those Jesus judged and those he did not: he judged those who were unaware of their shortcomings and gave mercy to those who already felt judgment. He brought them ALL BALANCE." and continuing to your point that living out the grace of God does bring wholeness to all.
As far as statements about overcoming the world and the prize, it is often true when we read them in context, like say 1 John 5, we see that the author does not put "life" as contrasted to an eternal punishment. Instead he puts God life as the contrast to a person who is not entrusted to Love through the Holy Spirit. Paul in 1 Cor 9 uses a word that literally means "proven false."
Let me summarize, I certainly see Jesus' discussion of Ghenna and Revelation's lake of fire. However fire is a common OT illusion, and it proves it self redemptive. John talks elsewhere about a smelting pot. I do not discount that God the sovereign and righteous judge holds the keys to death and to the second death. I do not believe one could hear the message of Jesus, and not believe in God's judgment.
My point is that I reject the way judgment has been mishandled by the evangelical side of Christianity, and I reject the certainty of binding God's judgment as the last word in the Eternal Purpose of God.
- 10:32 AM
I, too, totally reject the way judgment has been handled. In fact (to give an instance of what I see to be proper use of judgment) our Children's Director has been working with a woman who is an alcoholic. One night last week she got drunk and called Annette (the CD) and asked for her to come and get her. Long story short, Annette came up to me on Sunday and said: "What do I do? She fell again and I do not want her to think I am ok with it so I need to 'do' or 'say' something to her about it and let her know what she did was wrong."
I looked at her and said, "No you do not. She called you because she was aware of her sin and was seeking your help. She already feels the judgment of her actions and what she needs from us is mercy. We have to be her way out."
Judgment is appropriate and GOOD. It is what challenges us and drives us to change: the awareness and conviction of our shortfallings. Paul talks about the man who had married his mother and he says, "Turn him over to Satan! Kick him out!" Mercy was not transforming him, so he needed judgment to be made Christlike. Whereas the prostitutes needed mercy because judgment was not transforming her.
The goal is transformation! You and I agree about that. There are people who never knew Christ who will be in heaven because of his blood (according to Romans 2). You and I would agree on that. There are Jews who have been deliberately blinded by God and Paul says they will be redeemed. You and I (I think) would agree on that. The mercy of God is much greater than most Christians believe. You and I probably agree on that. The problem I am seeing is there seems to be a thought in your post that one can deny Jesus their entire life and still be restored to new life. This is my contention with(and my addmitted perception of) what I think you are saying. Am I right or am I wrong?
Is your heart wrestling with the undeserved beligerance and hatred of sinful people which has been practice in the church and you are trying to reconcile judgment and mercy in your mind, or are you abandoning the idea of eternal judgment all together and proclaiming all will be restore in heaven regardless of faith or lack-thereof?
Mark - 11:03 AM
Sorry for the rambling in advance...
Great post!
This also reminds me of Romans 2:14 - those without the law following with their lives things mentioned in the law. Jesus never says that his teachings are outside of the law (Paul does in several instances), Jesus instead says he came to fulfill the law. I'm happy to know that the full law is one that puts us in closer touch with something that touches the conscience of all cultures.
However, i see this "all-culture conscience" being equated with a "lowest common denominator conscience" (one that says, "do whatever you like, whatever feels right to you - follow your bliss") my question about Rom 2:14 is: "how do you become better - and more appropriately, how does society reach up from the mud and seek holiness when we're all doing what we want - like little children?"
I agree that Jesus seems to be tough on the religious leaders who uphold religious and political institutions, and compassionate toward those abused by those institutions. Also notable is how the sermons in Acts from Peter seem to be mostly aimed at Jews as a whole. (Side note: Funny that the poor are increasingly absent in Acts - and that the "summary" statements Luke gives to describe the expansion and characteristics of the church also dwindle as the book unfolds).
Paul seems to see a need to introduce the Gentiles to Jesus, but why? It seems they would be safer for the Gentiles in not knowing and avoiding the "pride" and religious leverage of knowing about Jesus.
I'm thinking Paul covered the Empire because he truly believed that the life in Jesus Christ was worth all the trouble. That even though judgment in the church was a reality, it was for the benefit of the church in its pursuit of holiness - and no judgment could be levied on those unaware of Christ.
But what about today in the West, where many have heard the news about Christ, but actively choose to turn him away? Or, like Paul's story - are choosing to assault those in the flock? What is their fate? Glad to know Saul/Paul's story ended so well - but what about atheists bent on disproving and upending Christianity for example? :)
I'm personally happy not to point any fingers or judge their fate. I'll leave that to the One with the proper perspective. In fact, I see many questioning atheists as a proper balance to keep believers honest about their claims.
Kevin - so glad you're writing on this - you're a great thinker and I need this stuff. Keep it up. :)
PeaNuht - 1:48 PM
I don’t think there is an issue so much with God’s judgment but the understanding of what Christ did on the cross.
If one believes that Christ died on the cross for a possibility of salvation of certain men. This leads to confusion on how God works and makes it had to understand salvation, because God doesn’t technically save anyone, just made it possible. But let’s say if Christ died and paid for the sins of those that are going to be saved, for the glory of God and His Glory only, why? Deut. 29:29.
It’ feels like there is an attempt to understand man and make men out to have the ability to be good. Men are evil and are hell bent. Really each and every one of us deserves to be eternally punished, and it is an amazing blessing that God chose to save anyone.